Podcast – Catherine Kelleher: the role of a note-taker
SBS development executive Catherine Kelleher gives a guide to note-taking, including how to get into a writers’ room, what to expect, top tips, and more.
Catherine Kelleher
Find this episode of the Screen Australia Podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or Pocket Casts
SBS Development Executive Catherine Kelleher says becoming a note-taker is a valuable step for any emerging writer wanting to break into the television industry.
“Note-taking is one of those opportunities - if you want to be a working television writer or a television writer that creates your own shows, I believe it's better than anything a course can really teach you because it's the real world of a writers' room,” Kelleher says. “I definitely don't regret taking a screenwriting class – going to any of that stuff is important because you're developing your brain for structure and craft – but I learnt so much being in a writers' room as a note taker, and it is a really essential place to develop relationships organically.”
On the latest episode of the Screen Australia Podcast, Kelleher – who’s also a screenwriter and filmmaker – explains the role of a note-taker, including how it differs from other writing roles, the make-up of Australian TV writers’ rooms, the dos and don’ts of note-taking and how to make the most of opportunities in the screen industry.
“A note-taker’s role [is] you're the person that's recording the discussion between the writers in the writers’ room. That can take place over several days, several weeks [and] at the end of the day, you're editing it, you're organising it, and you're sending it to the writers. Essentially, in a nutshell, that's what you do as a note-taker. It's a very, very crucial job.”
For the full episode, listen to the Screen Australia Podcast.
Subscribe to Screen Australia Podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or Pocket Casts
Audio Transcript
[00:00:05] Caris Bizzaca Welcome to the Screen Australia podcast. I'm Caris Bizzaca, a journalist with Screen Australia's online publication, Screen News. I'd like to firstly acknowledge the various countries you are all listening in from - the unceded lands of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. This podcast has been created on the lands of the Gadigal people of the larger Eora Nation and I've had the great privilege to be a visitor and be able to work on these lands during my years at Screen Australia. Always was, always will be. For this episode of the podcast, we are talking to SBS development executive Catherine Kelleher about the role of a note taker. Catherine, who's also a screenwriter and filmmaker, runs note taking workshops for emerging creatives and explains what a note taker does, how it differs from other writing roles, the make up of Australian TV writers' rooms, the dos and don'ts of note taking and how to make the most of opportunities in the screen industry. Remember, you can subscribe to the podcast through places like Spotify and iTunes where you can leave a rating and review. Any feedback, send to [email protected] and don't forget, you can also subscribe to Screen Australia's Industry eNews for all the latest funding announcements, opportunities, videos and more. Now here's Catherine Kelleher to talk about note taking.
[00:01:25] Caris Bizzaca Can you tell me a little bit about your background in the industry and your current role at SBS?
[00:01:30] Catherine Kelleher Yes, so I studied at UTS Media Arts production when I graduated from school. I always wanted to be a filmmaker, but then like I took this five six year detour into music to pursue that dream before kind of getting to the end of that journey and finding my way back specifically to TV drama, because it was like the golden age of TV drama, like Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and I was wanting to be a part of that kind of world. So I think I was about 26, 27, and I just emailed every production company in Sydney and got a job as an assistant at Playmaker. And that's where I just started learning, I guess, the ropes and the people and just how the TV side of the industry worked. And after a little bit time at Playmaker, I went to work in drama production, eventually found my way into regular note taking and script coordinating. And then around 2019 I decided I wanted to upskill in development. I hit a kind of, I guess, like fork in the road. I had sort of creative opportunities, but I decided to apply for Screen Enterprise funding to work at Lingo Pictures, which was fantastic because I'd done some note taking with them. So I'd had a relationship with them in the past, and that's where I met the wonderful Donna Chang, who is one of the commissioning editors at SBS. She was the head of development at Lingo and and then she went over to SBS and then that's how I kind of landed there. And I'm really, really loving it. And so I've been there for two years now. I'm also, you know, a writer director, made some short films, had some Screen Australia development funding and did the Imagine Impact program in 2020. So I still have my creative practice kind of running along the side of this job that I do now.
[00:03:10] Caris Bizzaca And with the the job that you do now. So as a development executive in the scripted team at SBS, what does that involve?
[00:03:18] Catherine Kelleher So we all are a very close team. My role as a development executive is reviewing a lot of the pitches and scripts that come through. There's sort of, you know, pitches and scripts that will come directly to our head of scripted, our commissioning editors. And then we have a portal and then we're easily contactable and we take pitches from anyone that wants to pitch to us. And so I manage a lot of those sort of more emerging creative pitches as well as reading everything that comes through and discussing that in depth with our team on whether it's something we consider for development. A lot of my focus as the dev exec at SBS is on emerging creatives and identifying talent and tracking talent. I meet with a lot of writers, I read a lot of script samples. I kind of manage the emerging writer's incubator that we do with Screen Australia and the state agencies, which is now entering its third year. And I'm across very closely across the Digital Originals program supporting Loani and Donna across that which is one of the best things I think we do at SBS for emerging creative, supporting the team and really my big passion and big role is about talent. Like I kind of meet with a lot of emerging underrepresented creatives and, you know, stay across their work, their shorts, their web series. And so that's what really excites me because I just want to get to know who all these people are. And so when there's potentially opportunities that we can facilitate, I can suggest them when we're asked for for suggestions from production companies about creatives that we want to put forward.
[00:04:46] Caris Bizzaca Great. And a bit of a shout out for Digital Originals is that the latest from that Appetite was just at Canneseries.
[00:04:54] Catherine Kelleher So fabulous. Yeah, really exciting and Latecomers at Series Mania as well. We're so thrilled about that program. It really is such a clear way where careers are genuinely being elevated. And we love working with Screen Aus on that one, so it's great.
[00:05:10] Caris Bizzaca And so another program that's been organised in the past was with the AWG, so the Writers' Guild and it was called First Break. It was a professional development program that you were a part of that helped train emerging creatives as a note taker or a script coordinator. So we will be focusing on note taking today in this podcast. But could you briefly talk about the difference between these two roles?
[00:05:36] Catherine Kelleher Yeah, sure. So a note takers' role in the writers' room is to essentially sort of - you're the person that's recording the discussion between the writers in the writers' room. That can take place over several days, several weeks, and you're recording that entire discussion and at the end of the day, you're editing it, you're organising it, and you're sending it to the writers. Essentially, in a nutshell, that's what you do as a note taker. It's a very, very crucial job and a script coordinator is a production job. So I would say that sometimes your note taking and I've done this on a lot of shows that will never see the light of day because that's just development, constantly things are getting developed. When you're script coordinating, the show has been commissioned, it's in production, so essentially the job is you're working with the script producer or showrunner or I guess the lead writer of that show and the production team. And essentially your role as a script coordinator is to format and release the shooting scripts. And then from that point onwards, you're going to have to be the messenger to the rest of the cast and crew on when there's going to be changes in the script, and that is in the form of script amendments or script revisions. You prepare those memos and these replace pages. It's one of those jobs that will make sense when you're actually in production and (the pages) come in coloured forms - there's blue amendments, pink amendments, green amendments, etc. And that's sort of essentially the job of a script coordinator, is you're letting the crew and cast know when there are script changes so they can update their scripts accordingly before they're going to shoot the scenes that are going to be shot in the schedule.
[00:07:04] Caris Bizzaca Does note taking ever kind of transfer then into being hired in that script coordinator role?
[00:07:11] Catherine Kelleher it does. So it happened for me when I did note taking on Glitch. I was note taking across several episodes, which was incredible for me because Louise Fox and Tony Ayres are such powerhouses in our industry and also my boss, Julie Eckersley, who was the producer on that show, and I was note taking on it. And I said to them, I would love to script coordinate on the show. I'm happy to relocate to Melbourne because I've got friends there for a couple of months just because I wanted to work around Lou. And so yeah, actually really common. Really, really common. And the way you go about that is you may have had done it before or haven't - I had done it before - is that you just make it known that you'd like to do that. And if they haven't got a script coordinator yet, then it's very likely that you would get that opportunity to jump on as a script coordinator.
[00:07:55] Caris Bizzaca And so you've run other note taking workshops, and some specifically for writers from marginalised and underrepresented communities. But why is it important to train people up in this skill?
[00:08:07] Catherine Kelleher Well, note taking is one of those opportunities - if you want to be a working television writer or a television writer that creates your own shows, I believe that it's better than anything that film school or a course can really teach you because it's the real world of a writers' room. I definitely don't regret taking a screenwriting class or going to any of that stuff is important because you're developing your brain for structure and craft. But I learnt so much being in a writers' room as a note taker, and it is a really essential place to develop relationships organically, especially with senior screenwriters, because a lot of the time it's those sort of, I guess like senior screenwriters, those people that have been working that will build that connection with you and might be the people that suggest you for something that they are leading down the track or will be co-writing a script with you. And for an underrepresented creative I mean, honestly, our screen industry benefits from having creatives from underrepresented backgrounds elevated. It's better for storytelling, it's better for our culture, and we just need more like people upskilling in that role and getting those opportunities because it's just better for our screen culture. So that's why the job is important. Representation matters and every time something comes out where certain communities feel like they're seen and heard, the response is just so incredible and so positive, and it's just better for our culture. So for people that want to be TV writers, that is a really - not everyone can do it because you have to be a good fast typer. Some some people with disabilities might not be able to do that job. If you're able to, it's a great thing to get into if you want to do that role.
[00:09:53] Caris Bizzaca And you mentioned TV - do you ever need a note taker for any feature films?
[00:09:59] Catherine Kelleher I have been a note taker in one feature film room. It is definitely possible in a development process for a feature to assemble different kind of story brains to try and improve a script or whatnot. In the context (for me) a director had a short film, he had an idea, but he wasn't a writer at a specific craft level and wanted to bring another writer on. So they had a writers' room with a note taker, the writer, the director, and like someone else to help break the story of the feature. It's not that common because ultimately features are more of a solo endeavour, but definitely, definitely possible. But you're mostly going to be working in TV drama, comedy rooms or, you know, online series. For Digital Originals they have writers' rooms for those as well. So yeah, they need note takers for that. Very important.
[00:10:46] Caris Bizzaca And what can someone new to note taking expect you know going into a writers' room?
[00:10:52] Catherine Kelleher Okay. So when you get in there they're going to talk about the weather or the news or their day, and then they're going to very quickly start talking about the story at hand. It's probably going to happen like a segue way. And so you just got to be ready and it's going to move fast, but you've got to just be ready to start recording everything you hear. You're processing it. It's essentially this exercise in listening where you're hearing what they're saying and I like to get into a flow. You're kind of recording that discussion. You need to be able to type fast and you're going to you're going to have to be listening for a full day. Obviously you get breaks, but both those things combined mean it can be quite tiring. So you have to be kind of prepared for that. It was really interesting how tiring that role is because it is a bit physical, but listening all day is quite, quite tiring. And so you've got to be aware of that because you don't want to miss those important tidbits, those bits of dialogue, those amazing ideas, because the writers that will come out of their mouth and they will forget about it and move on to something very quickly. So it's really important that you're recording those bits of gold. You need to put an hour, at least an hour aside at the end of each day to edit and organise your notes. That's really important. You can't just send a list of points, ten pages of dot points. Organise them into headings and make sure that it's clear and easy to read. Obviously that it makes sense, like read through the notes, make sure they make sense. And so you have to make sure you put that time aside at the end of the day. Don't spend all night. Don't go and stay until midnight editing them. Me and Donna always said to note takers when they were coming into work for us at Lingo was just get them out as soon as possible because sometimes the writers are going to want to read them that night. Sometimes they'll read them first in the morning. You don't know when they're going to want to read them, but you got to get them out as soon as possible. So there's a kind of skill in terms of like an efficiency at how quickly you can edit them. I kind of mastered it. I could do it quite quickly by the end. And also just don't be nervous. Australian TV writers are some of the loveliest, like open, warm people I've ever come across. I've never had a bad time in a room. Sometimes a room has just sort of not found its creative flow and felt like a bit of a struggle. But it's never been like a toxic negative place. I've never experienced that. And I find that a lot of writers really want to get to know the note taker. They know the note taker is an emerging creative. They know that someone wants to be a writer, already a writer. I just think they're really welcoming. So don't be don't be too intimidated by the writers. I feel like we've got a really beautiful community of TV writers in Australia, and so don't be scared.
[00:13:26] Caris Bizzaca And with that room, like, what does the make up of a writers' room usually look like?
[00:13:32] Catherine Kelleher Okay, so you typically have a creator or a lead writer. It just really depends on what the materials are, where they've come from. Has it been a piece of IP that the production company has optioned and they've brought on a lead writer? Has this writer brought the project into the production company? There's someone leading the project. They are the creator or lead writer or the script producer. It just sort of depends on how it's all made up, and they're the person in charge of writing whatever document is going to be coming out of that room. So depending on what stage of development the project's at, it could be the room is to build a Bible that's going to the broadcaster or just internally if the company is say, just got some Screen Australia development funding and they're trying to get their materials in order before they take it out to market or it's moving towards a scene breakdown. So there's someone leading that room and they usually have the whiteboard marker and they're like putting stuff on the board. Or if it's a zoom room, sometimes someone else will be, you know, some other methods of recording a whiteboard, the virtual whiteboard. And then around them you'll have a team of writers that are going to be on the project, depending on where it's at in development. Maybe they've been assigned episodes and depending on where you're at in development, one of the writers it could be you're plotting their episode, so they might take a bit more of a lead with the script producer in the room. Sometimes you have writers in the room that don't have an episode. They're just there to offer their brain in the brainstorming or the plotting. And that's what they're on board for. So you have a team of writers and sometimes you'll have depending, you know, script editors, script producers, it sort of just really depends on how the production company or producers are making up the room and using the development budget. So typically I see more script producers than script editors, but it just really depends. But you might have someone that's the script editor as well. You might have someone that's there to give, you know, specific consultation on an area of the show. For instance, if it's a medical drama, you've got a doctor in there or if you've got a legal drama, a lawyer. So someone in there might not be a writer. They're just there to give specifics on things that can aid the plotting process. And then you've got you the note taker, which is the crucial role of you're being paid to listen to this discussion and you're being paid to record it all. And you've got to organise it at the end of the day and get it out to the writers. That's what you're there to do. You're there to listen, in that job. So yeah, that's the room. The producer might come in and out, or be there all the time. Depends on whether they're a producer that really wants to be hands on. A broadcaster might visit sometimes. It really can vary sometimes with that stuff.
[00:16:14] Caris Bizzaca So for someone that is a note taker, what are your top tips for taking notes?
[00:16:20] Catherine Kelleher Definitely just generally for anything, be early or be on time, always. And I'd say, prepare your templates. I stole templates off someone that had note taken and in my workshops I give some. If you can get your eyes on a set of notes, it's not hard to make one up yourself, but I just prepare it. Just like, get them ready for each day, like have the title of the show and who's in the room because you'll get a, you should get like a worksheet from the production company listing who's in the room and how many days and just the all the details of where you're going to be note taking. This is one of this is the biggest tip I have is that and I made the mistake of not doing this the very first time I did a note taking job is that please read all the materials that they've given you before you note take in the room, so you know what the writers are talking about. It sounds pretty obvious, but it could be at any stage. So you could be going into a room and all they have is a two page pitch. You could be going to the room and they have a Bible, they have a pilot, or I've walked into rooms and they've got drafts of every episode and they're re-plotting. You'll benefit personally from doing this job if you're across all the materials. So you can see how they're going to break it down and improve it or expand on it or whatnot. But you'll also just do a better job because if you don't know what they're talking about, you're just blindly typing. Then you're just not able to really use your story brain to like, process what that discussion is. It it's not going to mean anything to you. So it's really, really important that you read everything that they give you. Sometimes it's a book, usually it's a good book. I remember doing Secrets She Keeps and I got the book a couple of days before the room, and it was a total page turner, and I inhaled it in like literally a day. So I definitely suggest doing that. Like just carve the time out because you'll just get so much more out of it as an emerging writer. I think there's a bit of a fear as well that you need to capture every single word and every single thing that the writers are saying. It's sort of not about that. You're not transcribing, right? You're capturing the discussion. So it's about listening in and getting into the flow of the discussion and I think once you do it one time, you'll sort of understand what that means. You just have to like have the chance to do it. And I think reading a set of notes and what that looks like will make sense to you. But I think note taking does require you to have an understanding of story and the language of story. And so if you don't have any understanding of that it's going to be challenging. So I'd say if you're really green, I would try and get a handle on what story structure is and beats, stuff like that. Commercial breaks or acts because in Australian drama they sort of sometimes in commercial drama, it's segments you're building towards commercial breaks, and in streamers or something like the ABC they'll have their own structure, but just an understanding of that will help you a lot better I think as a note taker. At the end of the day, you organise your notes, you edit them and for clarity, you put a contents at the front if you wish, and it's just so important that you get those notes out that day, that night. It's really important that they go out that night because I've definitely been on the other side where the notes have not arrived that night and the producers are like where the notes and it's really important. Don't go overboard editing them. Edit them as efficiently as you can, but get them out that night is really, really important. Before you start each job, ask the development executive or the producer or whoever has booked you for the gig. Ask them, do you want me to distribute the notes? Do you want to distribute the notes? Ask them that because if you're going to do them, you'll make sure you get everyone's emails, including the producer, and you email them. Sometimes that person will want to do it themselves, and there's other stakeholders or people that they want to send them to. So just ask, always ask if in doubt before every job who is going to send the notes out because then that communication is really clear. I guess they're my main tips for note taking.
[00:20:22] Caris Bizzaca And so when you're taking notes, do you need to credit who has said what?
[00:20:28] Catherine Kelleher I actually didn't do that. I definitely know that there are writers that do. I just didn't have time to because I wanted to get down so much. And ultimately, you know, it's a collaboration with TV writing, building that story. It wasn't something that I did. If it's something that you'd like to do, I would say you could always ask the lead producer, script producer, 'Hey, do you want me to credit people?' Sometimes when people were pitching stories or pitching something like they had a story pitch, I would credit them. And, I'm taking down like all the details of their pitch that they're doing. But in terms of like putting a name that every time someone say something, I just feel like it would take me too much time to get the names down.
[00:21:11] Caris Bizzaca Yeah, you're already processing what to include, not to include.
[00:21:13] Catherine Kelleher Yeah. And they're jumping around. I just want to get all the juice down so I wouldn't do each time someone speaks, assigning the name to the point. But say they do pitch a story like they pitched something like, 'Hey, I've got an idea. Why don't why doesn't this character do this, this and this and this, this, this and this and this?' I would go, okay [typing] 'Blahblahblah's pitch.' Yeah, that's how I would do it. But I developed my own way of of note taking. And I always say this in the workshops that I've seen like variations on notes. And if you can improve on this system or if there's something that you think can be more helpful and help those writers and whatever, you should do it. Because there's certain ways that I like to present notes with like putting borders around things and colours and stuff. Just so it's a more dynamic, clear document for them to read when they're sitting down with this set of notes and going, 'okay, I've got to start writing this Bible or whatever for the broadcaster.' But if in doubt, ask. That's always (my advice) with anything in this industry because everyone does it slightly different.
[00:22:26] Caris Bizzaca Yeah. I kind of think about it as if like someone who cooks how they look at a bunch of different recipes of the same thing, then they kind of make up their own. Where it's like, you look at a bunch of different notes that someone has taken and different people have taken in and figure out what your style or approach is.
[00:22:40] Catherine Kelleher Yeah, exactly. And the principles are all the same. You're recording the discussion of the writers, you're trying to get down everything they're saying. You're trying to not miss the colour and the tidbits and the funny lines, because ultimately after that room ends, they're going to take those notes and things might shift and change when they've got to write this document and start to interrogate the ideas that the room landed on. So it's a moving beast, that's development. It's always like trying to improve and improve and build on I guess like where the show started and where it's hoping to go towards being commissioned and being a fantastic Australian TV show.
[00:23:18] Caris Bizzaca So we talked about your top tips for note taking, but on the reverse, what are some key things that people shouldn't do as a takeaway?
[00:23:28] Catherine Kelleher I think the biggest one - I get asked this question in the course, the workshops a lot - is that emerging creatives want to know how much and when should they contribute. My advice always is and I took this from listening to US writers assistants like many, many years ago, but be really, really selective when you contribute to the room. Like pick your moment to let your story brain shine. And read the room as well. Some rooms are more open to and also ask the note taker for their thoughts than others. So for me though, I actually barely contributed, especially for a while when I was note taking because I just wanted to focus on the job that I was hired to do. I was also very intimidated by some of the writers because they're so fantastic. And I was just so like, 'Oh my God.' When I did feel comfortable contributing more is when I had worked with those writers, like a couple of times and felt like I'd been building a rapport and relationship with them. And so that's when I would sometimes pipe up with an idea or a little bit of tidbit that would make it into the show. And so that was really satisfying. But I'd say, like there's times I've observed the note taker sort of contributing a lot and contributing ideas that weren't really helping and contributing too much. And you can just feel like the awkwardness in the room. And so I just think be strategic, pick your moment, like pick a time where you go, okay, this is the moment that I'm going to contribute something, but prioritise the job that you're there to do. That's sort of the way that I feel about it. I think note takers that have had that chance to contribute more, it's always when they feel more comfortable or they're there with writers that they work with a lot. And that's sort of my big note. And also I guess like it's more like what you shouldn't do, but it is really hard to focus for such a long period of time. And I found sometimes, like especially when there's moments of pause, your brain might start to wander if you're not well rested enough. And I just think that it's really important that you are focusing that whole time and that is making sure that you're coming in really well-rested because I think that's a really important part of it. But trying not to let your brain wander is something you should do because you don't want to miss anything. And because, as I said before, they'll say a piece of gold and move ahead to something else and everyone will forget the gold. But they will be trusting that the note taker has recorded that. So their future is in your hands so you need to make sure that you're you're on the ball.
[00:26:08] Caris Bizzaca And for people that are emerging writers, so how do they actually then go about learning this skill and getting into a writers' room?
[00:26:17] Catherine Kelleher Yeah, it's really tricky. The way you learn how to be a note taker is actually to get that first note taking gig. It's with anything in this industry, finding that first way in is a mixture of persistence and luck and timing and all that. One way is to try and get in on initiatives, try to apply for initiatives that people do, the workshops and stuff. I didn't do any initiatives. I just was told when I started in the industry and I was like, I want to be a TV writer. I want to work in TV drama. And people said, 'Well, you just got to be a note taking a writers' room.' And even after that, it took me years, like I didn't get an opportunity for like, I think maybe four years into me being in TV drama because I just would email people and they had their regular note taker. And it yeah, it took me a really long time and the way I got my first job was extremely randomly where I'd emailed someone at a production company and she said, 'Oh no, nothing available will keep your CV on file.' And at this point I'd had some industry experience, and it's always really hard when you feel like you're coming from absolutely nowhere, but you've just got to put yourself out there, honestly. But she tagged me in a Facebook post, in a Facebook group on like a Friday afternoon where someone was like, we need a replacement note taker. And I Facebook messaged some producers' assistant and then I had my first gig on the Monday and that's how I landed my first gig. And then a week later, the girl at that production company gave me my second gig and then it really sort of built from there. And that's how it happened for me. And my advice is to be persistent, not annoying, in getting in touch with the drama production companies. Make it known to people, anyone you know, that you want to do it. Another thing I would advise, if you know anyone in your life that's been a note taker, anyone, ask them, 'Can you show me what a set of notes look like?' Because you're going to look at that and you'll understand what the job entails. You'll understand how you've got to organise information, what you're capturing, how it looks, what you need to put into it. Ask them for their templates. Anyone in your life that you know has done that before, ask them for an example that they can share confidentially with you. I think that's another way that if you can't access a workshop, that's another way to I guess like learn the skill. But then yeah, it's just about getting that opportunity and it is going to be like you're going to email someone on the right day where their note taker is not available and you'll get the gig. Everyone that I know in this industry that's been persistent with pursuing this, even though it can take like several years, eventually finds their way in. And everyone acknowledges that it does require a bit of hustle to get that opportunity. It's just the way that it works. So yeah, that's my advice on that.
[00:29:05] Caris Bizzaca And if you get that opportunity, so you get into a writers' room as a note taker, how do you make the most of that opportunity?
[00:29:12] Catherine Kelleher I would just overdeliver. Write the best notes ever. Be on time, obviously. I would just record pages and pages and pages of notes. I would make that look fantastic. And that's how I got like such a consistent amount of work. And always, after you finish the gig, follow up with the production company and this always pays dividends. Say, 'I really enjoyed that room. I'm available to do note taking again, if you'd like to have me back' and most probably if you did a good job, production companies tend to latch onto someone for a while. They might not let them go and they'll get booked for everything they do because they just, honestly you're the last person, when they're putting a room together, they'll go for the first favourite note taker on their list and if they're available, it's like the last person you're thinking about when you're putting a room together, but you just want it to be someone fantastic and someone available that you've worked with before. And so there's always a bit of trepidation on taking on someone new. So a lot of the gigs come through referrals from other writers, but if you do a job and you knock it out of the park, you'll know because the writers will always say, 'Oh my God, thank you for your amazing notes.' Follow up because that's how you spin more work out of it and get more opportunities and meet more writers and just continue to grow your experience in being in a writers' room.
[00:30:32] Caris Bizzaca And is there ever a danger then of getting stuck in that note taking role? Let's say you're so good at it?
[00:30:38] Catherine Kelleher Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I definitely was at that point because I think for a couple of years, it's really hard to take the next step. And a couple of other writers I know very similar. And I also meet notes takers right now who are, they're really great, they constantly work in the rooms and are sort of trying to find their way to their first credit. It's a very real thing. It can also happen with script coordinating. None of these jobs are bad things to do for a long period of time. It just really depends on what your ultimate goal is and also the good note takers, are worth their weight in gold and people will keep booking you and keep booking you, but at some point you will have to turn that work down, so you can progress out of that position. And I think for me, like what I did when I got to that point was I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to sit around and wait for someone to give me a script. I want to upskill in development and I want to broaden my experience level on how shows get developed and pitched and made. And so I pursued that opportunity at Lingo with Screen Enterprise, which I just really loved working on that side of things. So that's how I took control of that situation. And you might have your own way of figuring out how to take the next step. It is very, very difficult. And, it's the same with directors that have done their attachments and done all their Award-Winning short films and are trying to get their first drama credits. I would say like when you get asked, you just tell people, 'Oh no, I'm sort of phasing out of note taking and trying to find ways to take that next step.' It's very, very difficult. But I guess if you want to be a TV writer, it's that balance of like trying to make a living, working on your your slate and your writing and your work and then continuing to build those relationships. And if you've done it for a couple of years, you might be at the point where you do have some great relationships with some senior writers and you can maybe go, Hey, like have a coffee with them. 'I'm really trying to like progress to the next level of my career. Do you have any advice?' But it's hard, that elusive first credit is sort of the next step up from note taking. And the way that it happens for everyone is so different. So everyone's journey to that point is really different. So I guess you've sort of got to figure out what kind of things you can do to progress to the next level.
[00:33:05] Caris Bizzaca And you know, in terms of any further advice, I mean, you've given us so much great advice already, but was there anything else that you wanted to add?
[00:33:15] Catherine Kelleher I'd say getting that first gig will be the hardest thing for being a note taker. It is really about luck and timing and a bit of persistence. And I think if you really want to do it, I firmly believe if you're just persistent enough and not in an annoying way, don't email people like every month or two months. Like I say, try and touch, just like kind of make it known that's what you want to do. But as I said before, I got my first gig via a Facebook group randomly on a Friday afternoon. So a lot of the time it's going to be about getting in touch with someone on the right day. And I think that's just something to keep in mind. I guess my advice is that you do need a level of persistence in this industry. And everyone that I've observed around me that has built careers and great relationships have been persistent. It's a really, really long game this career. It's not an instant gratification kind of business. So everything that you do will eventually lead to where you want to go. I think just like for me, like taking a sidestep into development, like I don't know where that's going to go, but that's just sort of the journey that I'm on. And you might take particular jobs that won't feel like they are directly contributing to your writing career, but maybe being a production secretary on a drama, which is what I did, will get you closer to more opportunities, closer to the script department and meet more writers and get known in the industry and all that kind of thing. So yeah, I think you've just got to think of the long game with everything. It's going to take some time and if you really want it, you just have to keep at it. Like if I just listened to those emails, about 'oh I will keep your CV on file. Like, oh, nothing at the moment.' If I just listened to that first lot of emails that told me that I wouldn't be here today. I wouldn't have had all that experience in writers' rooms and met all these amazing and got to work with all these amazing Australian TV writers and then have this job at SBS, which I just absolutely love at the moment. So you can't be deterred by that. You just have to keep going if you really want to do it.
[00:35:22] Caris Bizzaca Persistence is key.
[00:35:25] Catherine Kelleher Persistence is key, yep.
[00:35:25] Caris Bizzaca Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
[00:35:29] Catherine Kelleher My pleasure! It was lovely to give some advice.
[00:35:36] Caris Bizzaca That was SBS development executive Catherine Kelleher. And another big thanks to Catherine for joining me on this episode. If you're enjoying this podcast, you can subscribe to it through places like Spotify and iTunes, and you can also subscribe to the Fortnightly Screen Australia newsletter to keep up to date with new initiatives, opportunities, videos, articles and more. Thanks for listening.